In this episode, I talk to Isaac Cotec, founder of herorise.us. He has spent over a decade facilitating dance events, hosting music retreats, and mentoring artist. We talk about the 5 masculine archetypes (wizard, warrior, father, lover, king), and how to use them.
Show Notes:
- (0:00): What is an archetype?
- (10:14): How to use the 5 masculine archetypes
- (20:37): Practicing in your ‘dojo’
- (26:03): The Warrior
- (28:44): The Wizard
- (31:43): The Father
- (37:00): The Lover
- (39:56): The Sovereign aka King
- (45:04): Separating biology from identity
Connect with Isaac:
Website: https://www.herorise.us/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/herorise.us/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HeroRise-106070784460044/
Chris 00:00
Hey guys, welcome to The Unshakable Man Podcast and Community for men who want to connect, heal and grow, not just for the benefit of ourselves, but for the benefit of everyone. And every thing that we come into contact with. My guest today is Isaac Kotek. He’s the founder of the math of the hero rise masculine archetypes deck, like, well, I want to bring in some backstory here, because Isaac, you, you and I, how did we originally meet? Was it was it just online?
Isaac 00:37
I think it was just some Instagram, Instagram thing, seeing what you’re doing with The Unshakable Man and I joined the second cohort, and had such an amazing experience. Yeah,
Chris 00:47
I thought it I thought it was either the first cohort or the second cohort. And, and so I wanted to bring that in here. Because we are, we have had the, I’ve had the opportunity to watch you, Isaac, to watch you as a creator, as a human being, as a person identifies as male, really bring to create the masculine archetypes deck. And I actually forgot I have literally, I have it right up here on the wall. And today in the conversation, we’re going to be talking about masculine archetypes in general. But we’re also going to be talking about our upcoming digital retreat. So we’re going to be doing a Saturday full day experience called the masculine archetypes, digital retreat with myself and Isaac. I’m feeling butterflies in my chest right now, as I say it, but they’re not they’re not fear that it’s excitement. I’m really, I’m just deeply excited to be able to create an experience where you and I get to take this stuff out of out of our heads right out of ideas, and concepts, and bring it into an embodied practice, where we get to physically practice using these tools to change our life, right to show up in a more empowering way. But why don’t we start off by first just having a conversation about masculine archetypes in general? Yeah, masculine
Isaac 02:20
archetypes. How I first came across to was I read the book King warrior, magician lover. And it’s a fantastic book that explores the idea of Jungian psychology, archetypes and how you can utilize them as a way of understanding your your masculinity. Yeah, such a great foundational book. After that, I ran into that idea more with the mankind project and with different men’s groups, in different capacities. And after about, like, 10 years of my own inner journey, my own work around them, I decided that I wanted something a little bit more tangible. Because I love that book. It’s fantastic. But I left at the end of reading it, I was like, What do I do here? I get the concepts, but, you know, how do I interact with this? Do I make this a practice? So I came back to a practice around it, utilizing it as kind of symbols and imagery that I can flip through to evoke emotions and connections, and it really helped me utilize these in a daily fashion. So then I created the archetype deck.
Chris 03:34
It’s, it’s so it’s so cool. I think one of the one of the things about this work that I think is so awesome to get to appreciate with men is how, when we go in Word, all we want to do is is discovering, learn how to share and, and a big part of that in what I see. And what you’ve done is when we have this experience of opening up to who we are, whether it’s healing, whether it’s moving through trauma, or anxiety, or overcoming whatever challenge it is that we’ve had in our life that opens us up. It, it seems to me like, like, what I get to see it or notice is is that men bring what they discover out into the world through a creative practice, right? Whether that’s in your relationship with your important other whether it’s with creativity or starting a business, taking care of your family, and it’s just so cool to hear how you you also read that book for me the first book, I would say would be the cutting through spiritual materialism. Then let it go and then King warrior magician lover and for me with King warrior magician lover it was it was a language it was at that time I had also been introduced to every man and bed to also been through men mankind project Excuse me. Been through mankind project and the king warrior magician lover. Art types gave verbal terms to ways of showing up that I could see in my life. Right, but I didn’t. When I when I got to interact with the deck, I think that that’s, that’s really where I got to see the shift from moment to moment in like an exercise form. Right like getting to I mean tarot cards, right? That that model. But for anyone who’s listening, we just had a podcast episode with Dr. Chris Bromberg that came out last week, that was about it. We talked about the man box and the culture of manhood. And and I wanted to link these these two things because we exist as human beings within, within a culture and that culture for us that culture of manhood. There, it isn’t. A, it isn’t our gender, it’s, it’s, it’s the culture of manhood that our culture agrees is, is being a man. Right? But what I wanted to bring in is now archetypes and what is an archetype? Maybe even not just a masculine archetype, but what, what is it?
What is an archetype?
Isaac 06:25
Yeah, I think one way you could look at it is this cultural definition of what manhood is, in a way is like a stereotype. Right? It’s like when you say manhood, or you’re a man, you have this image of, of a certain type of definition as generalized across the population. And we do that just because there’s too much information to process. So we want to share something quickly and move on. But it takes away the nuances and the individuality. Right? Archetypes are very different in the way that they have to do with. Think of an archetype as a psychic organ. As if your your identity is oriented or organized in a certain way, there’s certain aspects of you. And archetypes are just a word or a way of understanding each one of those organs are those ways of organizing. So when we’re talking about masculine archetypes, we’re talking about the parts of ourselves that kind of create our masculine identity. And it can be a much more personal experience. Now, it’s based on kind of underlying patterns within society within culture within humanity. Carl Jung developed archetypes by looking at dreams, by looking at myths and histories across the world and noticing patterns and saying, hey, when someone has or thinks of a warrior, the way or almost always has these types of attributes, the king has these types of attributes. So it must be something so deeply instilled in us. And those are archetypes. So unlike, like manhood, the man box this definition that we have, archetypes are much more personal, are much more easy for you to create your own interaction, your own definition.
Chris 08:27
I get this, this sense of granularity. And, and I appreciate you sharing, Carl Jung’s work and happen there are types come from. I think the thing that I didn’t hear you say that I’ll bring in is mythology and story that we as human beings have been in our communities, we tell stories, and we tell those stories in order to connect and to share and experience. And what what I’m hearing there is that when if if we just to make this more real, do you want to do you want to just give us what the five primary art types are that we’re going to be working with? In the retreat?
Isaac 09:10
Yeah, so the five masculine archetypes that I work with are you have the warrior, which is around determination, action. Then you have the wizard, otherwise known as the magician, is about intellect, wisdom, teaching. Then we have the father, which is around caregiving, providing and the lover, which is more about presence, emotion, intimacy. And last we have the sovereign, sometimes known as the king, which is about organization, harmony, collaboration. So right there.
Chris 09:53
Can you make a leap for me of how this is useful because I just you just you just went through the warrior, the wizard, the Father, the lover and the sovereign. So how is this useful? Yeah. And then maybe we can talk more about what, what comes out of that.
How to use the 5 masculine archetypes
Isaac 10:14
Yeah. So I think of these as modes of being modes that we get into. And where we’re in, we’re unconscious of it will generally go into a mode that we’re most familiar with, for some reason, the way we grew up the way we learned how to behave, it becomes our pattern, and it might not be the most useful pattern. So when we bring consciousness to it, we can switch modes, it’s kind of like switching the characters. Great example is, you’re talking to a lover, and you’re, you know, close lover has gone through some terrible thing today, they like crash their car or something broken their car, right? They come home, and they’re upset, and they come up to you, and they’re, and you’re working away on some computer or some reading something intellectually, and you turn to them, and you’re in your wizard. And you go, Hey, how about I do this, this and this, to fix it, I’ll call this person, I’ll talk to that mechanic. And your lover really just wants a hug, you know, just wants like to share a moment to calm their nervous system or whatever. So if you learn these archetypes you can feel which mode you’re in, look at the situation and say, what serves this moment, and then switch those modes. And you your art becomes your life becomes more artful. Right? It becomes like an artist with with the paints and the brushes, as compared to unconsciously just stumbling. As you go,
Chris 11:49
I love it. I’m just getting excited for the retreat now. Because the thing that stands out to me in this especially for as a learner, right, like if I’m if I’m reading this material in a book the way that I did when I first discovered it, right, or if you’re listening to this podcast, or if you’re reading one of the awesome blog entries on hero rise, in a terrorized calm, or here rise.us.us Hero rise that if you’re if you’re reading, when you’re reading, it’s its intellectual, right. And so it’s a concept. But in the example of how we use this material, it’s physical. And it’s connecting these these images of the king, or the warrior, or the magician, right? Excuse me, let’s do that. Let’s use the ones from the deck, right. So the what the warrior, the wizard, the Father, the lover of the sovereign, what I’m noticing here for the listeners is that we’re connecting it to a way of physically being. And then what I heard you say before, is we’ve picked up these ways of being in our life. And I know, we don’t want to get down into the shadow aspects. But I think one of the one of the coolest things that has come out, at least in our men’s groups, when we pull out the deck and use them in, in a playful way, is, is noticing shadow aspects of these archetypes in the way that we are being when we get stuck in life. And I think I think of that what I noticed and that is that these the, the primary five, right, like the warrior, the wizard, the Father, the lover, and the sovereign, they all have this connotation for me of being purposeful in a constructive way. But then there’s the shadow aspect to it, right? Like when I’m when I’m too much of a lover, right? Or I’m too much of a sovereign what happens so can we can we talk about that a little bit and that we don’t need to get down into all of the shadow aspects. But can we can we talk about that just a little bit to shed some light on it? Yeah, so
Isaac 14:03
with this work, after I read that book, King warrior magician lover, I for a few months, what I did is I created on my altar, for different buckets, so to speak. And then I would put a coin or a bead on each one of those dependent on if I felt like I connected to that archetype. So I put some on King after I like did my taxes or was strategic. I put some in my lover if I took time to be in my sensual self and with friends or partner. And that way, at the end of the week, I could take stock and see oh, hey, where where has my energy gone? It’s like, in general, my energy went way too much into wizard and I need to spread that out. So then I started doing things like martial arts that I specifically started that as a path in my life to connect to the warrior and different activities that will help balance me out. Right. So that’s one way that we can look at this. Another way is a lot of us have a preferred archetype, something that we keep going back to, because usually the way we were growing up the environment downwards in for me, yeah, we adapted because it was our most useful skill for me, I put all my RPG stats into intelligence. So I’m super high in wizard. And that can be really helpful that can kind of use it as a protective mechanism, if I’m the most intelligent person in the room, and I’m kind of proving that I’m kind of above other people. Right, which isn’t helpful, and it doesn’t lead to intimacy. So there’s breaking that down, consciously and understanding Oh, I am using this tool too much. And it’s not what shows the full spectrum of who I am. So I’m going to develop the other ones too.
Chris 16:06
But what I what I’m picking up here is what we’re going to be doing is first being able to identify, what am I in right now? Like, based on maybe what I’m doing, how I’m showing up to what I’m doing? What What are type Am I in. And then when I do that, it creates an image in my mind of the of the king, right or of the song, right? And that image, because our because the way our mind works, it’s so much more powerful, to be able to picture and empathize with just a nuanced view of like King energy. Right? And then what I’m noticing is, it’s about noticing what I’m in and then being able to shift and change and pick, what do I want to be in for the new moment, whatever the next new moment is in front of me, or to respond to a challenge in my life, or to example, they used like your part?
Isaac 17:10
Yeah. And there’s one more thing I would add to that of first recognizing the pattern. And the second is why, then you can start asking yourself, Why have I developed this pattern? What has led me here, and that’ll lead you to some really deep inner work that just, there’s a gold mind? And then that work tied in with understanding the other ones will help you find that higher potential that balance that you’re looking for?
Chris 17:39
So what do you what do you hope for someone who might be listening to this? who maybe has never heard of the masculine archetypes before? Maybe they haven’t read the King warrior magician lover. And they might be curious about this stuff. What do you hope for them?
Isaac 17:56
Yeah, the first thing I hope is that you recognize that this is this is work that’s available to you. It’s you don’t have to read a book about this. Just hearing these archetypes you could write out what you feel they are. And they’ll probably line up with these definitions and books. That’s what makes them archetypes. That’s what makes them universal. So you don’t need a guru. You don’t need to take a class on this, you don’t need to do all that it’s right here and available. But take the time to do it. Take the time to reflect, to research to look inward. These other guides are there for you. As you step into this, like taking a class is just or this digital worksheet is going to speed up your ability to connect to it. But I just hope that people recognize this as available, it’s helpful and unlike a lot of spiritualism, I’m I love spiritualism I’m deep in many different types of rituals and things like that. But what I really love about archetypes is it creates like a clear template and it creates a process for growth that is much clearer than other things. You recognize them you see why they’re out of balance you make a list of how you can bring them in balance you do those things and you change simple we’ll be sharing more like body movements and techniques to help that process but yeah available
Chris 19:33
i i love that your first step there was was Hey You don’t you don’t need to find a guru or or some some like go on some crazy journey you can these things work because they’re their their their contextual to our to our shared context that we have within community already right like I can picture with the king energy is right or the lover But there is that that, for me the physical practice and I think where this has really when I when I got to physically hold the deck right and and to work with it on my own was one thing that was a fun experience for me I’m not I wasn’t I didn’t previously have like a tarot card habit routine that I where I would use tarot cards, but then when we use them in a group, I think that that is where what you you alluded to right, we’re going to connect this to physical body movements.
Practicing in your ‘dojo’
Chris 20:37
I mean, I think that this is really
Chris 20:42
like, I think that that’s where these butterflies are for me of getting to bring this into into a physical relationship and to practice in a tribe, let’s say, or in the group dynamic, it gives us a whole a whole new language, to picture our relationship with our experience of our life. Right like, like just to be able to, to access lover energy, and then to give it a naming convention, and then to embody to shift into it, right, like we use this word in body. But sometimes I think it’s easy to be lost in translation, because we don’t use the word in body in our everyday language. But it, it really, I’m imagining a man who’s sitting there, he’s feeling stuck in his life, you’re sitting in your car, you’re in that space in between one event in your life and the next event in your life, and there’s a story in your head, and you’re moving through this adaptive process that you picked up, you have the same pattern that you get stuck in every time something happens in your life. And then it’s like you mentioned doing your taxes and King energy, right. And there’s this stepping into stepping into like, in a in a constructive sense, like putting on a protector mask or putting on a costume that fully holds your shoulders back, your chin is up, your eyes are gazing ahead. And you’re like I’m embodying King energy here to step into that void into that gap into that that zone of proximal development, right and take that action that scares me. And I think like, for me, there’s just this tangible, third person in the room here because of getting to do this in our men’s groups. Right? And in our men’s groups, we have stretches, and at the end of a men’s group will often connect with what, you know, what is that edge in our life? Is there a conversation I’m afraid to have? Is there some project I’ve been putting off that I’ve just been ruminating on over and over and over is somebody asking me to be more emotional or to be more intimate with them. And I don’t know how, right and, and when the when the masculine archetypes deck combined with that there was just this like, explosion of creativity within our community. And, and I can tell like here in this episode, I’m wanting to convey that, right, like I’m wanting to do like guys like, like, this is really cool. It’s it’s very, it’s very creative. It’s very physical. It’s not, it’s not like a lot of intellectual information to pick up. And it really has the opportunity to change the way you move through your life. It’s just another tool in your tool. So
Isaac 23:43
yeah, sometimes I also like to think of it as like a dojo, where, you know, you can practice something like I was practicing moves today and my tie. And I’ve been practicing those moves for over a year. And even if I have the move, I’m still keeping up with it. Because I’m learning more, I’m getting deeper and deeper into the subtleties of it all. And to have a container where you can have a conversation around archetypes and get into those modes with other people and explore what they are is like going to the dojo over and over. It’s like, I’m going to practice this, to learn these movements to learn these modes and ways of being so that I can get better and better at actually doing it in real life. Because you can’t just read a book, and then assume your actions will change. You have to practice you have to stumble, you have to get hit down, get back up, try it again over and over. And that’s what we’re creating. We’re creating a space that you can do that held in a safe container and feel really connected and have the tools because that’s just going to speed up your ability to do the same in your daily life. So
Chris 24:50
well said I often repeat in our groups that there’s the view the practice and the result and the intellectual information right the concepts or the view But then if we’re not practicing, if we’re not shifting that into a behavior, and in learning a skill in our life, well, then we don’t get to notice a new result. And so that’s what I can just see us. That’s what we’re going to be doing in this in this retreat. So, I would like to maybe spend like the next five minutes together, just going more slowly through these five archetypes because I do I feel like in the conversation so far we’ve, we’ve gotten over what they are, but just to just to have to end and our show today on what are they and maybe going a little bit deeper. And if we feel energized, I’m happy to spend more time going even longer. Can we jump in just one by one? On a slow, methodical way? Shall we start at the top? Just the warrior.
The Warrior
Isaac 26:03
So the warrior? When you think of the warrior? This is what we’re kind of talking about with embodiment, try to actually feel in your body. What is the warrior? How does a warrior walk in the world? Do they walk headfirst? Do they walk chest first, they walk aligned, thinking like that, it’s going to tell you a lot about the character and the feel of this part of yourself. So for me, the Voyer stands upright tall, maybe the chest is out just a little bit, a little bit more showing. And is super determined. You know, they don’t go left like to say you’re at the grocery store, the person who is in and out who knows exactly what they want, gets it leaves. They’re in their lawyer, their inaction, person who’s kind of wandering, looking like I don’t know what I want today or tomorrow, they’re not in their wallet. Right? So you can see how it shows up on the daily. It’s not just this, like, do you go into war? But it’s more about? Do you have the energy and drive to complete tasks? Do you believe in something so much that you will fight for it, dedicate to it? That’s the warrior. So we see that through activists, we see that through people who are, you know, moving in the world in such a way that they’re making an impact through
Chris 27:33
that, even as you said, just brought in the warrior, how does the warrior hold themselves just immediately brought my shoulders back, chin down, together, eyes were looking forward. And, and I just had this in my head, I just immediately said tenderness. Almost as if I’m not. I’m not overly agitated or aggressive. I’m able to just be like one with the environment. And then you said, going into the grocery store. It’s just such a perfect example of the people rushing around. And then maybe politely, a picture and politely waiting to get the apples Well, an elderly woman, you know, pick slowly through the apples to get what she wants, right? And instead of like pushing her out of the way, you’re just like, waiting to get the apple, the one apple that you need, and then move on. And that was just to describe it takes so much work, right? But then just that one, that one archetype when you listed it. Great job, man, that was awesome. Do you want to just go through the rest? I’m loving this. This is I’m enjoying it. Yeah, awesome. The wizard.
The Wizard
Isaac 28:44
So wizard, sometimes known as magician is around intellect and wisdom. So when you think of the wizard, you can think of whenever you have that inspirational idea that pops in your mind and you have all that excitement, right with that excitement. That’s the embodiment of the wizard. So how does a wizard walk through the world differently? How would they have an idea? Do they approach it? Usually, the way I see it is head first full like full throttle kind of they stopped paying attention to everything else they’re just so obsessed. It’s the mad you know the Mad Hatter the Mad fascinating things
Chris 29:29
putting out spells Yeah, yeah.
Isaac 29:33
Um and it has to do with inner wisdom and spirituality as well as science and intellect. So, we can connect to this like inspirational ah, by looking at astronomy or all these different aspects of plants in nature. And we can also find that same level of all through inner work through understanding our spirituality or connection to the otherness of it, all right, and pursuing those paths is the essence of the wizard.
Chris 30:15
I just, it’s just great because you’re giving these explanations, right? And then I’m getting to have my experience instead to share my inner experience of the wizard. Right? You know, I, I’m in my creative space here, I’m in the podcast studio. And when you when you said, when you said the warrior, I was sitting up straight, right, and I’m, I’m picturing myself doing a yoga pose, right? Or, or moving through the story that we just said, but right when you said wizard, I imagined myself at my desk, in the place where I do my wizard work, right, where I would put together a blog entry or a class right are prepared to speak with you, right? head neck, that’s, that’s like the Wizard area, right. And that, and just with the mention of it, and yet also was able to connect with the shadow aspect of the lizard like getting stuck in the head, right, getting stuck in, in too much of that, right and not enough warrior. Right? Not enough stepping out into the into the natural world and colliding, right, like bringing what the warrior is into the world. So I’m just enjoying this creative playfulness right now in the episode and excited for the next one. Yeah, the father.
The Father
Isaac 31:43
Yeah, so the Father, is the part of ourselves that has to do with caregiving, providing, taking care of others. So we can do this in a daily way? How do we create space? For our friends, for our lovers for our family? How do we create an environment that is conducive to their empowerment, because that’s the key of the father, the father is creating a safe environment for someone else, to blossom into who they are. And to not be attached to that, not to not to want to get paid in return for that. It’s just pure, unconditional giving. So how do we bring that energy into our life? And you can again, bring that into embodiment? How does feeling into the father within you? How, what type of movements do you move through? When you connect with a friend and you’re connecting as the Father? How is that different than if you connected to a friend of wizard? Right? What type of conversations would you have
Chris 32:50
to play with your father, I immediately had sensation not only for others, but also for myself. My ability to hold myself to care for myself, but not to be caretaking, not to be needy, but to give myself what I need. And to be detached from that that outcome I heard you say in there, like, like you’re caring, but you’re not attached to directing that the children are letting them become like what they’re going to become. And so there’s this this balance in the middle, right, like creating that space to play into the being with Beautiful, just beautiful. So
Isaac 33:34
I think there there’s one important thing with the Father, which is, as I talked about, that I wasn’t talking about my father, right? This is the archetypal father. This is the father that that we see. It’s the golden thread that we see within books and stories and myths. Because this is more about how we interact with this larger pattern. And that’s with all of these, all of these are not about external things like the warrior isn’t about if you go to the gym or not. It’s not about how big and swole you are, like you can utilize, going to the gym as a metaphor in a way of understanding your determination of understanding how you are of action in the world. But just because you’re weaker or stronger doesn’t mean you’re the archetype of the warriors weaker, stronger. Same thing with the father just because you have a bad connection or a good connection with your father isn’t about the archetype
Chris 34:39
and at the same time it might bring up your you’re noticing that you have a relationship with the Father, maybe you have a father wound both of your relationship with with your actual father is different than the archetypal energy of the constructive, healthy Father archetype. Wonderful
Isaac 35:03
calling. Yeah, it’s like there’s a thin diagram, right? Like, there’s an overlap between those things.
Chris 35:09
I just thought they’re in this film and how different it is to talk about something versus experience it right like, because even in the ARC of this conversation, I’m noticing that somatically just in my body, I feel more open, I notice your your language, your calmness, your ability to share and express like, what these are, we went, I’m noticing a shift and not in the tone, right from the beginning. And to me that shift in tone is dropping out of the head and into the body. It’s something that happens when we’re, we’re just, we’re acting something out. And it’s it’s a full body experience. And I bring that up to just almost say, use this experience on this show in this recording as a example of how different it is to intellectualize this information in the book, great, I’m aware of it. But now look at just in the past three minutes, like acting it out, I feel like I’ve integrated this in ways that it’s renewing this information for me, and making it totally way more purposeful, right? And then, and so, moving on, I do have a question that I can’t wait to ask. And I don’t want to forget what it is. I’m going to ask it now. But we can come back to it later. What do we say to someone who doesn’t identify as male? Right, because we’re talking about masculine archetypes here. And and I’m, I’m just gonna put that out there. Let’s come back to it at the end. But I want to make space for anyone who’s listening to this who doesn’t identify as male? And, like, Is this is this for you? These are masculine archetypes. Right. So, lover, is that the next one you’d like to get go into?
The Lover
Isaac 37:00
Yeah, so the lover is the part of ourselves around intimacy, connection, presence, what it really boils down to is how present you are with your experience. Because intimacy is about that presence, being open to experiencing it with someone else. Right? It’s not about future leading, it’s not about talking your way through it. It’s just how do I feel the moment and play and interact with it? So the lover moves through the world in a very different way. Right? They would go through that grocery store. Yeah, in and out. They would take each step as a cool experience. Ooh, I get to smell all these fresh produce, I get to see all these beautiful things like what do I want? What do I desire? I’m going to take time to revel in that desire. Right and that’s the lover and it’s very important I think it’s very easy for men and a lot of people to forget how important the lover is because it’s it’s the why behind everything right it’s why does the warrior protect something it protects for love it protects for creating that space for others to have that intimacy that emotion that reasoning a warrior with no love is a mercenary is a villain is someone you don’t want to be around
Chris 38:37
and I even before you said that I remember the first time we used the deck in a group and was creative moment and in something really cool happened with the lover. What happened was we we were putting we were just moving through them weren’t weren’t really using the cards, but we’re asking what what from your share today? Which one do you identify with? What I what we noticed is that we all came back to the lover in the moment in order to get into the next archetype that we were in was almost like the lover was what we were doing in the group. We were we were being present were dropping out of our head or good patterns whatever we were coming rushing into being and then coming into the lover and then accessing King energy right and and I just think you just did it right there right where you were like a warrior without without lover right is is a mercenary. Right and and so that that lover aspect has archetype has such a competent Tori effect. Right gets kind of linked with everything being present is key.
The Sovereign aka King
Isaac 39:56
So the last one is the software are sometimes called King. So the sovereign is about how you organize your life. It’s the strategies that you take along with that it’s your collaborations with others, how do I create harmony in this situation? How do I empower others, but also create this empire? Right? This, this place this dominion, this realm, that is healthy and thriving. And you do that by planning, you do that by getting the right mentors and, and help and, and organizing all of that. So we connect to the sovereign, whenever we’re being very clear with where energy is where it should go, how can we be effective and efficient, right, and that mode feels very different. Like when I sit in my sovereign, there is this, it’s almost like a lifting up feeling. It’s the viewing from on top of a mountain riding, overlooking everything. And you have to get in that mode, you have to lift above the daily thoughts, the little things that are in your way, because if you react to those, you’re you’re never gonna build a kingdom, you need to think big. And then you need to take the tools and the steps needed on a much wider level to make those happen.
Chris 41:28
And with the software, you said that I was like, my, my weekends are my sovereign. Right? That’s this I, the end of the week, or the beginning of the week, being able to look at what what where do I want to allocate my energy and awareness this week? Right? How did I allocate managing awareness last week? Do I want to make time to speak with Isaac on Thursday? Or do I want to make time to speak with somebody else? Right, and then when I’m, when I’m in that it’s a very different, it’s almost like targeting, and when you say like, how you allocate your energy. And when I when I lose that, what I noticed is my warrior gets depleted. Right? And I get my lover comes on more, but I’m less effective, right? I’m not I’m not allocating my energy and awareness appropriately. So, man, that was beautiful, great job. Great job on the spot just flowing with me. I really appreciate you doing that. Isaac. Yeah. So to that did, is there anything in there that you feel like we’ve missed or that we should review? For anyone who’s listening? Well, this,
Isaac 42:39
this work is granular, you can keep finding new steps in, right. And it’s all in the subtleties as you get deeper and further in. But I think that’s a pretty good overview. If you want to experience the archetypes again, you can just think of, what do they invoke in you? How do they feel? How does that feel in your body? How would you have this conversation if you were in that archetype, or that archetype, right, and switching between those almost like roles that you play is really going to help you connect to the essence of it. Because it’s within you, it’s an archetypal symbolizes an archetypal pattern, you just have to kind of create space for it to to become more clear and more separate, right? Because when we go throughout our daily lives, it’s all kind of muddled. Unless we have these words and these languages and these practices to make them sharper in view.
Chris 43:34
Honestly, I feel like that is why we’re doing this retreat on the 26th is to create a space to be able to play with these. And I think one of the biggest things about doing something in a group is we get to learn through interoception and recovery, Galatian through relational intimacy, with other human beings, we get to be in that space. And I get to see like, hey, what does Isaac do for his like, right, like, and I get five different examples. And then I integrate those, and it inspires me to have three ways of thinking. So I’m, I’m like, just genuinely, just creatively excited to put this workshop off on for the first time. And, and I can already kind of feel that like, this is going to be something that we get to do again, because it just it just so useful. And in terms of a set of tools to move through life.
Isaac 44:32
Yeah, what’s really nice is it’s a skill. It’s something you can learn and practice and get better at, which is great. So it’s not as like, yes, femoral. Yeah, there’s a lot of other work.
Chris 44:44
Absolutely. Can we jump into that final question before we go, like, what do you what do you do? What do we say what I’d like to speak to that person who doesn’t identify as male and who might be listening to this song might be curious to it. For the masculine archetypes, but where should we get started for them?
Separating biology from identity
Isaac 45:04
Yeah, well, I would say that I think it’s really important to separate biology, from identity when it comes to your expression of femininity and masculinity. So even Carl Jung, his concept was that within us is the Anima and animus, the, the, the feminine within the male, and the masculine within the female. And vice versa within us is, is both of these energies. I also like to think of traditional Chinese medicine, where everyone has a yin and a yang energy. And you’re using different points and different medicines and things to clear and create a nice circuit between all of those energies. If you’re too much in one way, then you’re out of balance. And I think that’s a great metaphor for understanding one’s energy. So we all have masculine and feminine, they’re just there. It’s almost like a scale. And we have these two energies on these two sides. We’re never like, in just one mode, we’re somewhere in between, we’re always moving, but connecting to your masculine archetypes as a woman, as a man as non binary, whatever your expression is, will just give you more understanding of these roles that you slip in and out of that these these ways of patterns have been my friend. Thank you
Chris 46:37
so much for that. Yeah, it is it is really important to me to leave on that note and to reiterate that because this even in the practice of with with myself, but interacting with King warrior magician lover, I remember sharing that with my fiance. And it opened up this whole area of territory around intimacy. And what I’ve what I think comes up repeatedly, especially in like the blogosphere is just this. This this misallocation or misunderstanding that, when we are talking about masculinity, we’re not necessarily talking about manhood or being gendered man, that we can have masculine and feminine ways of being an if anything within our community. And within our groups, we’re holding a masculine structure in the group a container, in order to bet hold space, for that feminine flowing energy to flow and to be to be guided and to be used for healing. And that’s what I see at least within the handshake woman community. And it doesn’t, it’s really about becoming a more whole vibrant, connected human being, and, and then showing up in society as someone who identifies as male, as being a more open hearted man.
Isaac 48:01
Yeah, that’s something Carl Jung with the idea of animus and anima. The idea was the integrated soul. The integrated person is someone who has connected to both of those who has worked through the shadows, and integrated and to be whole, you have a balance between the feminine and masculine. What I find really interesting, and what I’ve been exploring is, okay, let’s say you find balance, but you’re interacting with other people. And then you can start playing, like, I’m going to lean into this part of myself, I’m going to lean into my masculinity so that you can lean into your femininity right now. Oh, I need I need more emotional vulnerability. I’m going to lean into my feminine and you’re gonna hold me right. So then that’s a whole other level of this. Once you integrate, then you can start pushing and pulling the boundaries to, to have more fun to have more connection to better connect to the moment.
Chris 49:04
Bam, I love it. I love it. I can’t wait to have conversations with you. For anyone who’s listening. I really hope that you go over to herorise.us And check out Isaac’s blog. He has amazing writing done some awesome ultimate guides to Union psychology. You can’t see the you can’t see the name tag on the plant to my right but the plant to my right is named Carl, Carl Jung. And so if and if you are interested in curious, I’m going to plug it for you. He’s created the masculine archetype deck. It did amazing on Kickstarter didn’t was it like 40,000 people or something? Or am I exaggerating a lot
Isaac 49:50
was about 40,000 in sales, about 900 bucks.
Chris 49:53
Wow. Just talk about talking about putting tech coming from within and bringing your gifts to the world. I mean to do nine, that 900 He said, and 900 data sets 900 human beings out there who are getting to use this to pass this, this work on to others. It’s just beautiful. Thank you so much, Isaac, thank you so much for being in here. I can’t wait. I can’t wait to hang out with you on February 26. So that’s my last plug. If you are interested in curious to come to our masculine archetype digital retreat, it’s going to be from 11am pacific standard time until six o’clock, PM, Pacific Standard Time, Isaac and I, we’re going to be collaborating and this is going to be very experiential. He’s going to he’s going to bring in his intellectual understanding of these art types. And then we’re going to play through how to embody and use these in your life. And we’re also going to be integrating some breathwork in there, it’s going to be awesome. There will not be any zoom fatigue, I promise. It’s going to be really, really great. Thank you so much for listening. If you am the last one if you’re interested in joining The Unshakable Man community can head over to unshakable man calm, schedule a community welcome call there. It’s just a private call and opportunity to ask any questions before joining a group or you can go ahead and join right away become a member and then schedule the community welcome call after that to either or, and, and that’s it. I’m super excited to be hosting this podcast for the next year. Thank you so much for being in the community. Isaac, I’ll give you an opportunity to say goodbye.
Isaac 51:40
Yeah. Thanks so much for everyone who listened to this. It’s just amazing to see that the type of people that’s gravitated to this work I really see how important is how we’re, we’re changing the world by looking within and finding a new way of being so I really appreciate that and want to give you credit for showing up. Until next time