In this episode, I have a conversation with Dr. Chris Spromberge about the dangers and damaging effects of “The Man Box” on men, women and all of society.
Show Notes:
- (2:23): Masculinity and Shame
- (4:44): What is The Man Box?
- (12:25): Fall Out of The Man Box
- (16:01): Role of Shame in The Man Box
- (20:41): Empty Connection Syndrome
- (28:03): What’s the Payoff for Showing Up?
- (35:06): Engagement
- (39:50): Learning Through Relationships
- (45:32): Brave Spaces
- (48:15): Creating More Space for Connection
Chris Wilson 00:00
Hey guys, Welcome to Season Two, episode two of The Unshakable Man Podcast and Community for men who want to connect, heal and grow, not just for the benefit of ourselves, but for the benefit of everyone and every thing. My name is Chris Wilson. I’m the founder of The Unshakable Man Podcast and Studio. And I’m in here today with my friend and guest, Dr. Chris Spromberge. Hey, man, how’s it going?
Chris Spromberge 00:32
A buddy’s. So good. So good to join you.
Chris Wilson 00:35
So we’re, we’re catching you in the hospital today, right?
Chris Spromberge 00:39
Yeah, this is my office out of out of local hospital. I work out here in rural Montana.
Chris Wilson 00:47
Awesome, awesome. So if we, if we get any knocks on the door, or if any emergencies happen, I just want to invite that in to help you feel more comfortable being here. So thank you, man. It’s
Chris Spromberge 00:59
always it’s always happening out here. So I see pretty busy. But I don’t have the time to be present with you.
Chris Wilson 01:08
Hmm, dude, that that feels good. I, I wanted to just say like, first and foremost, man, I really appreciate for the the time, the energy, the awareness, and the willingness to share that you have brought to me to my own practice and to the unshakable man community over the past year. I, I’m sensing the want to pause right there. But at the same time for, for anyone who’s listening to this, Chris and I have not met in person yet, but yet I feel like a brother of his, we got to co facilitate the unshakeable man cohort for at the end of last year, and got to spend three months together holding space and bringing men on this transformational journey learning self leadership skills, how to drop in how to hold space, how to let go of any and all emotions. And in this topic of the man box, he and I, Chris, I think you did your PhD thesis in the topic of masculinity and shame. Am I right?
Masculinity and Shame
Chris Spromberge 02:23
Close, I got a Psy D degree. But uh, yeah, it’s a doctorate, similar to the PhD. And my focus in on my thesis was around masculinity and shame, which is a basically the underpinnings with the man box.
Chris Wilson 02:37
Oh, I love it. So thank you for bringing in the man box. And, and today, today’s episode two, and it’s this topic of the man box, which is just this j, this gigantic topic. And I want I want to make sure that we preface here today that we’re going to be talking about a topic that not only have you done an immense amount of work on your own, but we’re talking about subjects that we are going to likely be talking about again and again here on the podcast. And I’d like to bring this in as a pillar topic for men to become aware of, which is the man box itself. And before we get started, I just wanted to like jump in with some some questions that I’d love to cover today. Like, what is the man box? What puts a man in what factors put a man in the man box? Why is it even a problem to be in the man box? How does the man box affect others? How did things change when a man gets out of the man box? And how do you guys get out of the man box? And like why are we even talking about this? Yeah, an hour right? Yeah, we got an hour.
Chris Spromberge 03:55
There’s whole like, you can take a college class on some of this. And maybe yeah, someday we’ll do that. But yeah, we’ll dive we’ll dive as much as we can into that. I was reflecting back it was like a year ago taking a lunch break, sitting in this space connecting with you on this and how both like our personal experiences and our work, you know, with men just resonated with us to really better place this and understand these these theories and ways of understanding the work in our own experiences that really connected in ROSS together. So it’s fun to be like sitting in the same spot on my lunch break with you again. Getting to really connect, which is what we’ve enjoyed the most and have done even though we physically haven’t met.
What is The Man Box?
Chris Wilson 04:44
Yeah, totally agree. So Chris, like what is the man box?
Chris Spromberge 04:50
Yeah. So it’s this idea that masculinity and what it means to be a man is something that has been socially constructed in American sight society, specifically, we’re talking about American society. This these ideals, right? This this kind of box of when we say like, what does it mean to be a man? Right? Talking about definitions that fit within the box. But these definitions are socially constructed, right? They’re a role that society has kind of assigned to men, people assigned male at birth, right? means what it means for these people to how to engage and interact and what’s expected to them. In our culture.
Chris Wilson 05:40
I love I really appreciate when you say they are socially constructed, and they are assigned to us. Right? It’s, it’s, it’s in for me, it’s it’s becoming aware of that there is a culture of manhood that I am a part of. Yeah,
Chris Spromberge 06:01
and we all learn, right? It’s a, it’s a learning assigned to us, and we learn our role, just like we learn our, our lines in a play.
Chris Wilson 06:12
So why why is why is the Man Box even a problem? Like?
Chris Spromberge 06:18
I mean, in some ways it to be honest with you, Chris, it isn’t. Right? We kind of all learned the roles, and it’s been adapted in a lot of ways, right? Yeah. Yeah, we also we’ve, we’ve seen the consequences of this, what has become like a very narrowly in rigidly defined box of what it means to be a man.
Chris Wilson 06:44
I appreciate like, even when I asked that question, like, why is it a problem? And you come back and you’re like, what? Well, and a lot of ways it’s not. And that really relates to me, between this disc, what we review, every time we start a group of within The Unshakable Man of there are no good or bad emotions. There’s only constructive or destructive reactions, right? Or as you and I will often say, there’s only acceptable and not acceptable emotions. And so there’s a constructive and a destructive consequence to this box. There’s a lot of adaptive positive qualities that come from this box. But it’s becoming aware that you that there is a box. Yeah, that you’re in.
Chris Spromberge 07:29
Yeah. And like, I think, maybe we start by kind of like defining the box a little bit more, right? Yeah, let’s do it. Like traditionally in in the culture, and maybe we just kind of riff back and forth a little bit. Like, we’re using a big paintbrush here, right? I like to use the caveat of like, traditionally And historically, in our culture, what has it meant to be a man? Right? Like, what right what, who like, what defines like, masculinity, manliness, in our culture? Provider? stoically kind of unswayed by emotions.
Chris Wilson 08:07
Yeah. Yeah. Not emotional.
Chris Spromberge 08:11
Unless it’s a I have
Chris Wilson 08:13
Yeah, I’d have like athletic or fit strong. physically strong. Yeah.
Chris Spromberge 08:22
I would say like, like always achieving, right like if you’re not up the ladder, or yeah, really a man like or do not in leadership?
Chris Wilson 08:34
Yep. Yeah. The breadwinner, right. Like this idea that you are the one that that brings home the bacon. Yeah. Yeah. Right. The hunter the gatherer the the one that goes out the protector sorry. Now I’m getting on a roll the protector like, right, but like, protecting the, the the group protecting women. Yeah, protecting people who are weaker than you.
Chris Spromberge 08:58
There’s also like the sexual conquest. Okay, yeah. See? Yeah, actual activities, especially with women, right? Uh huh. Yeah. The term comes in mind notching the belt.
Chris Wilson 09:12
Yeah. Yeah. And so that so here so here, we’re crafting these these terms, these these general ideas of what it means to be a man. Right? And so I’m, I’m getting this picture of myself as a young man, and at 1718 years old. I’m also thinking about all of the movies I would watch that would tell me what it meant to be a man unconsciously. Right. I’m thinking about the role of Disney and cartoons. I’m thinking about the role of Instagram, right six pack abs. Right and and how, like body My body shaming, right like feeling like if my body doesn’t fit in with what it looks like to be a muscular physique of a man, right? Coming at with sexual conquests you have like penis penis size. Right, like aggressiveness with your partner, or hunting women down, right? Like, like being a player.
Chris Spromberge 10:13
So we’ve all seen like these, this box, like, archetypes played out in lots of, like, lots of avenues, lots of like, media content, right? And so we kind of like, we all know, right? We all kind of know the, or feel the expectations, right? This is also like, the, you know, the grade school playgrounds. Right, where the middle school locker room
Chris Wilson 10:41
boys don’t cry. Right? Like, boys bedrooms are blue girls bedrooms are pink. Right? Like, like this, like, right? So I feel like we’re getting we’re, what I’m what I’m appreciating here is that, in this moment, is that, like, we all know this. But I think the point that I, that I’m being that’s becoming more concrete for me, and and what what is important to bring in here for the listener, or for men who are anyone who is who’s listening to this, is that this, this has, that this is a part of our so much a part of our culture, that we might reject it, right? Like, I am not a part of that this isn’t how I am, but I actually have to reject it. Like I, as a human being or a person who identifies as male, I actually have to, like, earn, either I feel like manhood needs to be earned, or I have to fight to be in there. And to stay in there. Or somehow, if I, if I even choose not to, I’m somehow removing myself, I’m somehow not being that, that thing.
Chris Spromberge 11:54
I often say, Chris, like, we all were, like, explicitly told these things. Like, if you fall as a little kid like me, the stereotype is like, Oh, you’re fine, get up. Right? Don’t cry. Right? Right. We it’s explicitly told to us, but also just the way like, you know, the the images have been sold to us, right? Or just like, even feeling, right? Like, we internally know this, even if I kind of like, Ah, I don’t subscribe to that I don’t have to be macho, we still feel that pressure sometimes.
Falling Out of The Man Box
Chris Wilson 12:25
And that and that is the creepiness, like, that’s the that’s the existential kink. That’s the paradox to manage here. That’s the thing that is so pervasive, you have and then and then just in my mind, things pop in like feminism. Me too, wanting to be a good man like wanting to like wanting to not be this other kind of man that it that the media has portrayed, right, but then being labeled as some other kind of man, right, like Bing, bing, I remember for me, early in my early in my 20s. Somebody somebody called me and another friend, metrosexual. Right. And, and I, and I’m, like, Why did never heard that term before? Right. And, and I just like, was, like, what
Chris Spromberge 13:22
you what you’re speaking to, like, the consequences. Right, right. And so, like our culture has, like we mentioned before, really kind of narrowly in rigidly defined the idea of what it’s what it means to be a man, right? We’re all human beings and as a human being, I have emotions in sadness. But if that’s not manly, listen and experience those things. I fall outside of that box.
Chris Wilson 13:52
Okay, so like, right there. I’m a human being, I have emotions. And now I fall outside of that box, which means I’m violating it. Right. So I’m, I’m somehow not being this thing to even just have emotions. Yeah, right. Like I can so. Right. Right. And I think that that’s where this this started to crystallize for me over the past five years was spending time more time with all different all different men types of men who identify as male, and yet they realizing that we all exist and deal with these violations of the man box.
Chris Spromberge 14:37
Yeah. We all like every guy knows the experience of falling outside of the man box. Right you can call names. Right? Or sometimes it’s even like physical consequences, right? Yeah. So you get called names metrosexual right. Don’t be a worse Don’t be right.
Chris Wilson 15:03
Don’t I’ll say some that, like not not sitting in your office is. Don’t be a sissy. Don’t be a fag. Don’t be gay. Don’t be. Don’t be a mama’s boy. Don’t be a weakling. Right, like, toughen up. Man up. Yeah. Right. And this whole this whole culture of in the wild thing is is how even as I say those things, right, like when you when you said like oh come on get up give it another try as as an athlete and as a young man who found purpose in in an athletic like spaces. There’s a constructive quality to that. No, you can do this, like give it another try. Right?
Chris Spromberge 15:58
Yeah. And we’ve seen great or good qualities.
Role of Shame in The Man Box
Chris Wilson 16:01
Right, exactly. But there’s this, there’s this thing that I think we like, and there’s a reason why we’re here. And this is the second episode, right? Is it’s it’s this shame. Right, like, and so I’ll tee this one up for you rather like what what is the role of shame then? In in the man box?
Chris Spromberge 16:25
Yeah. So what we see is when you fall outside of this narrowly rigidly defined box, right? And like we said before, like, in some ways, it’s adaptive, right? That that pressure to like, get up and try again, that’s a good thing, right. But we when we kind of continue to force that and disconnect from emotions, we’ve seen consequences. Right from this level of rigidity around masculinity. I don’t like calling it toxic masculinity. I just call it like to call it really rigid mess, you know, and it has had consequences.
Chris Wilson 16:59
Right? Because I mean, like, when you talk about when we even say the term toxic masculinity, there’s a whole population of of people who, then look at it, are you telling me that masculinity is bad? And it’s like that in and of itself with today in the blogosphere? Right. Like, right, we are, we’re picking up these terms. And then we’re othering a group of human beings and saying, like, the way you are being like you are are saying that you are bad, right? We’re mounting them versus they’re a verb. That’s the way you’re being.
Chris Spromberge 17:32
Yeah. So there you go. You just teed me up for the shame piece, right? are bad is the definition of shame. You are not enough. Not good enough. Right? So what do I fall outside of the box? Right? I have human experience that isn’t doesn’t fall within this masculine box. I get called names. Like, don’t be a sissy. Right? And that, what that does is puts pressure on the man outside of the box to then be back in the box. So you have to over express your manhood. You have to? Yeah,
Chris Wilson 18:08
you have to over express your
Chris Spromberge 18:10
manhood. Yeah, you have to then prove your masculinity. Right by back in the box. One of the easiest ways to do that is through physical prowess, right? Punch that person and face that I’ve shown my physical aggression. I’ve proven my masculinity that even though I have motions, I can still punch you in the face. And look at the man. Right. But what all of this is doing is is perpetuating this, like what you talked about with like using toxic is you’re not being man enough, right? Not being enough, you’re not good enough. And so this whole masculinity is is policed by using chain.
Chris Wilson 18:51
Right. And shame is the emotion that says, If I told somebody what I did, or what happened, I won’t be allowed in the tribe. Yeah, I’m not good enough for that. You’re, you’re not good enough to be in. Right. And so what I, what I notice is that within our spaces and within their communities, is that vulnerability is from the outside, is that I have routinely seen messages, evidence heard from other men, anecdotally, that being vulnerable is considered weak.
Chris Spromberge 19:32
Yeah. Even from other aid, right. It’s not just brightly seen this box. It’s also limited. It’s cultural.
Chris Wilson 19:39
Right? And yet, when we don’t feel emotions, when we disconnect when we Harden, I think the connection that I want to make for future shows here, and we’re going to go deeper into is this. We’re disconnecting from the experience of our life. Yeah, right. Like we’re disconnecting from the felt sense of well being in our body. And then that sends me out. I think what I, what I the connection I’m making and like the the aggressiveness, right, the proving of my masculinity, one, it’s one thing to punch someone, but it’s this whole other adaptive side of things. That is, like, needing to be a certain title needing to to achieve a certain job, right, like having to have these aggressive big goals in order to just be okay with yourself. Right?
Chris Spromberge 20:39
And not being okay.
Empty Connection Syndrome
Chris Wilson 20:41
Yeah, and, and so, that, to me, is what I’ve, I’ve even started to call like, empty connection syndrome, right. And it creates this like brittle quality of our life experience where we’re constantly and anxiety constantly feeling tense. If I’m not doing something I’m not, I’m nothing, like I am my roles of the things that I do. Right, and we’re often
Chris Spromberge 21:05
pulling back from shame is a disengagement, right? We pull back then, because I’m afraid of making the wrong move of losing the man card, right? not fitting in the box. And so by pulling back then it’s harder than to connect with others. Right? We lose, we lose authenticity, right? In just avoidance of vulnerability.
Chris Wilson 21:40
So am I am I in the Man Box no matter what?
Chris Spromberge 21:52
That’s a great question. Right, it’s a socially defined role, and also a personally defined role to Yeah, I think my my hope, and what I always talk about my work with men is to not not get rid of the main box. Like, even in my relationship, there’s things that I value in, within the main box in feelings and pride around being the provider. Right? I like that. But how do I not not use that to define being a man?
Chris Wilson 22:30
I, I just riffing with you here, Chris. Like, I just as I asked that question. It, there’s, it’s just this, this, this realization, and this, this isn’t a new realization, but right now, you know, I think I was like, up in my head in terms of, of trying, right, like trying to have to articulate this subject. But the second that I asked you that question. That was the the felt sense of I Am, I exist in this culture, right. But what I see happening in community, right, is that, like, if I look at you, if I when I judge you, right, like, you have a beard. You’re you’ve got collared shirt on, right? Like, there’s things that I know of you and I make all of these judgments of what who I think you are, right, and I’ll just say like tough, intelligent, right, like strong. Right? And and, and yet, I don’t know your heart. Right? I don’t you haven’t been vulnerable in that moment. Like when I’m judging. Yeah. And what I think I noticed in that question is that this is why having physical real world experiences with a group of another met of other men. Not by not by how what we’re interested in, right like not about being a better athlete and being in a men’s group that’s like raw like, like we’re gonna go out and identify with this culture of being tough and perpetuate that by simply gathering in community in a circle and in opening our heart and taking that safe risk of vulnerability to to open our heart and to say what is true what is hidden right I have a physical experience like i i get to get get to have that that intimacy with another man and then realize how much that story in my head is is does not match up with what I thought was there what I was unconscious of. And that that to me, changes me on the inside.
Chris Spromberge 24:54
Yeah, that’s such a scary ask though. When we take a look at the man inbox. It’s all those things. You’re asking to slow down to feel to allow, like deep connection, especially with another man. Right? Traditionally that has been no, you don’t do that you’re okay. You pull yourself up by your bootstraps, figure this out on your own. Don’t up Don’t let others that. Right. And so that’s a scary, that’s a scary ask.
Chris Wilson 25:24
And that that is why I think that this work is so courageous, right? It is such, it is such a powerful, incredible choice for men to explore this, and to take that step, right to come into a men’s group to show up on a Tuesday night, right at a at an in person group in your neighborhood or your city, or to come and join online to join one of our men’s groups, right, and to show up in a Zoom meeting. And you don’t know, right? Like, there’s an immense like,
Chris Spromberge 26:04
like, yeah, and it’s going against the grain of what I’ve been told is what’s appropriate for me and safe, right? Because when I’ve stepped outside of that, there’s been consequences. Yeah. And I often say like, well, well, this isn’t always explicit, right? We don’t go, you don’t point at people and say, You’re outside of the manbox, shame, shame. Like maybe mid days, we don’t actually just yell at people. But it’s, it’s a, it’s a physically felt known experience of, oh, if I show up, right, and I actually share, like how I’m struggling, right. Other guys are gonna judge me. And that’s shame. Right?
Chris Wilson 26:55
Right. And yet we see this proliferation of, of men working against that, right, having conversations like this, opening up that man box, opening up what the traditional sense of what it means to be a man and creating opportunities and experiences, to be able to broaden that right and deepen that.
Chris Spromberge 27:20
That’s those are the terms I always use for the man box. It’s not to dismantle it. Right? Okay. But how do we, how we broaden what’s what it means to be a man can encompass more human being experiences, and still be able to identify as a man, right, and, and own some pieces, and hopefully, like, let go of some others, like the don’t need to define my manhood, being strong doesn’t define my manhood and still be a man and struggle with weakness. Right, but also, I can be a man in, in struggle with my mental health and have feelings and also be a provider my relationship.
What’s the Payoff for Showing Up?
Chris Wilson 28:03
Yeah, I, I’m just playing the devil’s advocate here. But I’m like, why? Like, why why if I’m, I’m like, listening to this, right now. And I’m, you know, I’m in a relationship with with a man or a woman, I’m, I have kids, I don’t have kids, I have a job. I don’t have a job. I’m, I’m sitting here listening. It’s like, why why show up? And do that. And
Chris Spromberge 28:36
I can’t always answer at ruins. Why. But generally, in my why, and a lot of guys that I’ve talked to, is at some point, like, you lose track of the bootstraps, and you can’t do it on your own anymore. And you feel that that emptiness and that loneliness of like, I’m tired of doing it on my own. And that’s been a really cool experience for myself. And so many, many doctors at some point. Doing it on your own, it gets really lonely.
Chris Wilson 29:10
Yeah. And as you say that I, for me, as a 10 years ago, as a 28 year old, a young man, I didn’t define of having anxiety at all, I didn’t think there was an issue at all and then had a massive anxiety attack, which opened me up to the realization that I had been suppressing and repressing and use and had that aggressive relationship with achievement and which was hired all of these constructive things like like societal things like great job, right? Like I was a goal oriented guy who could get the job done. And yet, when I when I think about the quality of of my life. I wasn’t aware of what I wasn’t aware of. Right. And I think that that’s the, the message to me to men and is that like, we we are having an experience of our life. And and that experience is physical. It’s not it’s not in our head. And if it is in our head, it means we’re disconnected from our body. Right and, and that this work, it opens us up to being able to experience more of our life, like more joy, more peacefulness, right, like, sure. More intensity at times, but also just more interconnectedness.
Chris Spromberge 30:48
Yeah. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And we’re seeing, like I mentioned earlier, right, we’re seeing consequences of adherence in this rigid box. Right? Mental Health rates for for men are significantly increasing, especially around suicidality, we don’t see, you know, guys reaching out and getting help, because that’s not part of the box is asking for help. Right, we’re seeing, or men like,
Chris Wilson 31:16
do you have? Do you have a list of things right there in front of you that you’re holding back from just listing off? Because I would love it? If you just go through this? Yeah,
Chris Spromberge 31:25
there’s a few of them here, let me find them real quick. Because I have them in a couple different spots.
Chris Wilson 31:33
But while while you do that, I guess for me, it’s this is for for men who are listening to this. And it’s wild to appreciate how much in these conversations I am routinely wanting to simply say, all human beings, because this isn’t just about people who identify as male. It’s not just for people who identify as female, that we are existing. It’s becoming aware of the fact that we exist in a culture, right, and that culture has created these cultural pressures that are produced by shame. And that, yes, people, women deal with pressures and men deal with these pressures. But I think, speaking to where we are right now in the zeitgeist, right, within North America, is is that we are being asked as men to open right and to, to handle a much more nuanced way of being as a man, and that this traditional box is it’s killing us. Right? Like it’s sending us it’s, we’re getting morning. Do you have you have it now?
Chris Spromberge 32:49
Gotcha. Awesome. I got to tee up there, right? We’re, we’re seeing a significant portion, like, especially in utilization like of health care, right? Even just asking for help and getting healthy. I’ve been a victim of this, and I work in the healthcare system of you don’t go to the doctor until you have a list of like five things wrong, right? So we see like 33% of men have like no regular doctor that they go to or check in with when they’re sick or seek medical advice from right. men make up 55% of the workforce accidents, but account for 92 of all workplace deaths. Right? So we’re, we’re engaging in more deadly jobs, but also more risky behaviors, right. We also seen like this adherence to kind of like toughness and violence and proving the masculinity and in amping, amping up, that kind of masculine behaviors come out and violence, right. 86% of all armed robberies are committed by men. 77% of all aggravated assault are committed by men. 87% of stalkers are men. 99% of rapes are committed by men. Men Commit approximately 90% of murder in our country. Right? We often lose this statistic in all of the school shootings, but 99% of those are young boys, right? It’s not about the the the weapon of choice. It’s about the male. Yes, choose to engage. Right. And then we also see this in mental health to where men continue to lead the statistic in suicide rates. just devastating.
Chris Wilson 34:36
Yeah. So there’s a man box. And we’re in it. Yeah. Whether or not we like it or not, yeah, there’s
Chris Spromberge 34:45
a cultural ideal of what it means to be a man. But historically, while it’s been adapted for some guides, right, helped us, you know, get through life. There’s also been significant consequences of really kind of holding tight to them inbox and how narrowly it’s defined?
Engagement
Chris Wilson 35:06
Yeah. So so then what is like, I guess for the second half year, like, what is our big message then?
Chris Spromberge 35:13
Yeah, it’s it’s engagement.
Chris Wilson 35:17
What do you mean by engagement?
Chris Spromberge 35:19
Well, I’m even thinking of my morning this morning. And getting getting to meet a young man who came in to see his primary care physician. Because he’s, he’s been struggling with pretty severe anxiety that has led to thoughts of suicide. And he literally said to me this morning, like, I ran out of bootstraps, I don’t know how to bootstrap this one. And my boss said, to go see my doctor, there’s no shame in getting mental health or mental help.
Chris Wilson 35:51
There’s no debt required. And getting mental health help.
Chris Spromberge 35:55
Yeah, yeah. But that requires moving past the discomfort of asking for help. Because that may negate my manhood. Right? So I have to I have to engage I have to move past the, the discomfort of showing up and being vulnerable, saying, Hey, I’m struggling, or I’m not doing good. Or I’m lonely. Or I’m doing okay. But really, like, losing people around me.
Chris Wilson 36:32
When you when you say that, right, like, like, when you when you bring in this image of okay, and engage, right. One of the things that I notice over the past five years of being in an ice pick five years, not 10, because the firt. For me from my since my opening, I was aware of this needing to engage. But I didn’t know how. Yeah, I did. It took it took time to learn, and to to be around other human beings who had gone deeper than me. And I think this is one of the biggest things that like, almost like a mission that I see in communities, like the unshakable man, is that the reason why these communities exist, is because we learn these skills in physical relationship with other human beings. Right? And that they’re that, like, when I’m in crisis, and I’m walking in to be with Dr. Stromberg, like, that’s, that’s, you might have 30 minutes, you might have an hour right? Of being with this man. Right? But the reality is, is that that’s a crisis moment, right? Like we’re now we’re now at a point where we’re actually stopping the bleeding. We’re not talking about thriving, no, right? We’re not talking about going deeper into the wounds that are inside the places inside that we’ve covered over unconsciously not knowing to just survive to get to where we are today. Right. And the ability to do that in therapy, just to play the devil’s advocate, where I’m like, with one other therapist, the job of the therapist, they built the chance encounter of that therapist making a personal connection with me, that just meets right, where the two flowers open and together at the same time, right like that. That’s so that’s such a, like, incredible opportunity, right to have that that occur. And so I know I’m going off on this, this tangent, but what I, I guess, like, what I see is that it is the power of the circles the power, of being in community with a group of other human beings who identify as male, is that I’m just gonna say it over and over again. Right. And like, because the the dude that was that was 22 years old who needed this, he would have never said that. No, absolutely. I would have never said identifies as male. Yeah, right. Like and, and, and yet, like, hat being in that space for, I’m just gonna pick a number three months, 12 times 12 hours together, let’s say 12 hours are right. Yeah, even that infant has only blip on the radar of an experience, but I have seen is that it changes us on the inside.
Learning Through Relationships
Chris Spromberge 39:50
We learn who we are in relationship to others, period. And especially you’re in an environment where you can get different, like different have a relationship and see that like, oh, I can learn that I can show up and be vulnerable and not be shamed for it. Man, what a powerful and corrective experience.
Chris Wilson 40:13
Yes. And that, I think is why we need to have this with people who are not our friends. Which is another thing that I think we I see out here all the time I constantly in the in the mental health space, you know, the the blogosphere, the manosphere out there, that’s like, oh, learn how to go deeper with your buddies. And then that, that makes sense that, like good like that. That’s great. But that’s just the surface level to me. What at where you actually get, the biggest impact is when you step out of your friend community, you step out of your relationship, and you invest in yourself. And you say, I’m going to go into this thing that scares me. I’m going to join a men’s group. And I’m going to give this a try. Yeah. Right. And just like any changes, yeah,
Chris Spromberge 41:07
sorry, Chris. Just like any other skill, though, right? Like if I wanted to learn to downhill ski, right. And I knew nobody else, I’m not going to get together with my buddies, and we’re going to boot up and ride the tall lift and go down the black diamond.
Chris Wilson 41:22
Right, right.
Chris Spromberge 41:23
I mean, I need to go around and go with people and start small, who know how to ski and can show me the way. Right.
Chris Wilson 41:30
Right. But the but the challenge that you and I are dealing with in this conversation, and that anyone who’s listening this is dealing with, I think, is that we have the mental emotional construct of of that. I only need this when something’s wrong. Yeah. Right. So you’re being brought into this from, from a heart attack in your life or a car accident in your life, right? So your life is bringing you into this space, your relationships are breaking down, you’re lonely, you’re depressed, you’re anxious, right? That’s one way in. But then there’s this whole other avenue into this, of I actually want to learn new skills, I want to become that person who can serve through their life, and actually not just benefit myself, but benefit others. And I think that that comes back to what I said at the very beginning, right, like a podcast and community for men who want to connect healing grow, not just for the benefit of ourselves, but for the benefit of everyone and everything. Right, like this work really change changes, how we experience our entire life.
Chris Spromberge 42:45
Yeah, deeper and more like broader connections. Right to myself and others, just amplifies the experience of going through what is a really challenging life in lots of ways. Right? And yeah, doesn’t have to be alone doesn’t have to be solo, you can be right. deeply connected with others going through this challenge of life.
Chris Wilson 43:11
Yeah, I think that that’s what probably been one of the most interesting things about being in these groups. And the last cohort with you was, I heard so many times in the cohort. For for men specifically that I’m thinking of, that came back to me after and said, I thought I had, I wished I had my friends here with me. And then, like, during the signup process, these guys were wanting to invite their friends to come be a part of the cohort, and their friends didn’t come. And it the that topic. When they connected on that they it it I think one man probably said it, and then three other men were like, Oh, me, too, right. Like, I wanted my buddy to come be a part of this. And he didn’t do it. Yeah. Right. And yet, I think what what I noticed, like what what’s coming back into that’s relevant for this conversation, is that I think there is an incredibly high stakes quality to a friendship, right, like that. I’m friendship is so special. It’s such a special choice type of relationship. And that on one end, we want this person to be our friend. And so we don’t show up as who we really are. Right, like we withhold and we try to keep them right like like if I if I step out of that box. And what was so interesting in the cohort was to hear these guys complain at the beginning or share how sad they were that I you know, I wish my friend had signed up for this and then they all connected on it, but then by the end all of them Were like, wait, I’m actually really happy that I did this. And I totally understand it can empathize with why my friend didn’t come in here. Yeah. Because maybe he was scared to be there. And it lets us be explore it lets us see who we are in a new way without our friends. Yeah. But then we go back into those relationships changed. You
Chris Spromberge 45:23
often say like, we’re not creating a safe place, but a brave or a place of Go ahead.
Brave Spaces
Chris Wilson 45:32
Yeah, we’re not creating a safe space. We’re creating a brave space. Yeah. Yeah,
Chris Spromberge 45:36
I think yeah, I think that speaks to, yeah, I’d love my friend to come because that would help ease this, this fear that I have of entering into unknown, right in vulnerability of, I don’t know what’s going to come and how am I going to be able to adapt? So let’s have someone come in, right. But then the value of being able to say like, no, look, I showed up, like I did that even without the support, right, of having a buddy who I know, there. And just the value of like, how you did it, right, you’re able to show up and be brave, in a space that’s asking you to go against the grain of what you initially have been told you’re in felt your whole life of? Don’t show weakness, right. Don’t be vulnerable. Don’t be authentic, and emotional.
Chris Wilson 46:28
Right? Yeah, the value
Chris Spromberge 46:30
that comes from like, entering into that vulnerability and coming out the other side seem like it’s okay.
Chris Wilson 46:39
Yeah. So what if we, if we use the the final minutes here of our conversation to just reflect back? What do you think is the most important takeaway for men? Or anybody listening to this? I’m gonna have to get used to that like that, for anyone listening to this, but for men, specifically, what, what, what do you think is the biggest takeaway
Chris Spromberge 47:07
for me, it’s just been like, especially that last piece that so much of the box has, has not felt congruent with who I want to be in the values that I want to hold, I want to be authentic, and I want to show others that it’s okay to not be okay. And to have emotions and feel sadness, right. And to be able to, to be sad and express that and, and still identify as a man and in hold some, you know, traditional masculine and masculinity and values. But can we open up that box? Can we broaden it and pull the shame away from from like, the, the hard definitions, right to Harvard? Yeah, rigid walls of this box. And allow, like vulnerability to be a masculine experience. Right, we can be vulnerable and still be a man. Right? In that as we do that, then we’re creating more space for connection.
Creating More Space for Connection
Chris Wilson 48:15
creating more space for connection. Yeah, it’s, for me, it’s this realization, everybody has talked about connection, I feel like this word connection, like being connected or disconnected, is I hear it, I hear it all the time. Like, do you feel connected or disconnected to your life to your job to your relationships to the to the felt sense in my body, and for me, it’s it’s becoming aware of this culture of manhood that I exist in, right? That, that it’s, it’s almost like just tearing off the goggles, and seeing my life and relationships in a new way. And then, and then discovering that I actually need to go out and have a physical experience like I, I can’t, I can’t just do this on my own. I can’t do this just in my journal. I can’t just do this in my head or by reading a book that I having a physical experience, right, like actually joining a group, a men’s group has just completely changed the way that I show up with myself in my life. And and then from that has been extended outward into how I respond to everyone and everything that I come into relationship with. And when you and I have these cards, realizations about union psychology. Right? When we talk about spirituality, when we talk about intimacy, and connection with our important other, or Beloved, right, or our relationship with, with source with mother nature with the divine with God of your own choosing, it’s absolutely it’s like mind blowing, to me, that we started over here with this rigidity, and this topic of, of, of the man box in this culture of manhood that’s been brought to me really like that, like you’ve in conversation with you, and about and be in and practice together in the in cohorts. And with men in our space, that there’s just this like, I am going on, but this like culture, like Instagram, movies, commercials, it’s, it’s pervasive. It’s, it’s just incredibly different. Yeah. Then, then what you, you talk about, and I, and you alluded to it, where you set to me to when you said, I still want to, I don’t want to dismantle the whole box, like, I still really want to hold on to some qualities. Right. But you got to go on this journey as a, as a human being almost like out of society, as you know it. And, you know, that reminds me of the hero’s journey. Yeah.
Chris Spromberge 51:37
I often think like, how do I move from? Like, feeling challenged? Right? I think maybe a lot of guys might hear this and hear us wanting to challenge what it means to be a man in our culture. Right? Yeah. And that challenge, then, usually kind of results in doubling down, right? Well, no, this is what it means to be a man men should be the breadwinner winner. And we should like, right, right? We take that, you know? Yeah. Be in charge, right? Yeah, we should hold emotions off to the side. So there’s like this doubling down in almost like white knuckling of the idea of what it means to be a man. And my hope isn’t to say, like, no, no, those should be manly. Right? My hope is to say like, how do we how we hold on with an opening? Right? I can’t I can be in charge. And in some ways here in my work setting, yeah, I people kind of answer to me, right? But I don’t, I don’t white knuckle that I don’t need that to be a part of my identity holding on. Like a weird DB now.
Chris Wilson 52:48
It’s okay, we’re in the hospital together, I really, I’ll just make come in there on the hard way, versus the open way of that point that you’re making. of, of, for me, this, it’s in, in moving through these experiences, and opening up to more of the wholeness of who I really am. as a, as a human being as a man. It’s, it’s realizing that it’s, it’s not about these reactions, or the, that it’s that it’s the way I’m being right. And what I noticed in there as you you, you squeezed your fist, you tightened your body, and that that is a reaction, right? And, and that when I do that, I reinforce this story in my head, I hold on to something. And it’s, it’s a fear response. Right? And, and fear is the mind killer, right? I then construct all of these these walls in my life, to hold myself off, and then my perception of my life and my reality frames around that, right, like, oh, it’s bad to do this, or men shouldn’t do that. And what we’re actually doing in practice in these spaces, is slowing ourselves down. Right, we’re getting out of our heads and our good patterns. And we’re learning we’re learning to create a space where any and all emotions can be present. But Chris, I I’ll take that as a message to let you get back into the flow the river of life in the hospital. But thank you so much, man, thank you so much for just taking time out of your busy schedule at the hospital. And and for bringing, like you’re just just going through this experience with me and the men in The Unshakable Man Community over the past year.
Chris Spromberge 54:41
Yeah, again, thank you Chris. But also it’s like, you know, after after wrestling with this, right, like, I don’t like to say I’m at at conclusions, right. I’ve put my doctoral like, studies and thesis behind this and been in my own work and therapy and in men’s group. still continue to wrestle with this and have questions and trying to figure out this balance of like, identifying as a man and but also wanting to open up that box to encompass more more human experiences. Really, what it comes down to is just valuing the connection. And the way I get to do that is by being vulnerable and opening up these parts of myself that struggled to do that when I was younger, based on all the things I had learned about what it meant to be a man in our culture. So I always just like I value the time to, to get to just sit and be in and be messy with alarms happening, messy with making speaking mistakes, and saying I’m in like too much probably. That’s, that’s That’s me, and I’m okay being mean letting that that be a guy who identifies as a man of culture.
Chris Wilson 56:04
Thank you so much, Chris.
Chris Spromberge 56:05
Yeah, thanks for the time. So good to connect. As always